LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?

[beyonlo]

@bmarkus said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@beyonlo said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@bmarkus said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@beyonlo said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

2. But for start in this way, I still would like to know how many LoPy devices can one LoPy (as gateway) to support?
   Project 1: The idea is that each LoPy device send 100KB each 5-10 minutes.
   Project 2: The idea is that each LoPy device send ~20bytes each second.
   Project 3: The idea is that each LoPy device send 100KB each day.

Thank you.

No way.

Project 1: It is not for LoRaWAN even not for an 8-channel professional GW. LoRaWAN is not for 100KB data transmission, it is for sensor network sending low volume data in most cases in one direction w/o confirmation much less frequently..

Propject 2: Channel usage, transmit duty cycle is limited to 1.0/0.1% depending on channel.

I kindly advice to read basic documents and FAQ on LoRaWAN and redesign your projects. You need something else than LoRaWAN. It is not about LoPy.

Hello.

Sorry for my ignorance, but yes, I already read about the Technology (data rate specifically), from here https://www.lora-alliance.org/what-is-lora/technology and say : "LoRaWAN data rates range from 0.3 kbps to 50 kbps. "

Yes, I know that 50 kbps is a theory and/or with a perfect environment. But if I have just ~5kbps, is fine for Project1, Project2 and Project3, see?

Thank you.

GW's support SF7-SF12 which means cca. 5kbps max. But do not design for SF7. Really, what you want is not a LoRaWAN use case. I can't tell you more.

All right. So, please, going to the point: "how many LoPy devices can one LoPy (as gateway) to support?"

A real and valid scenario (project): send 100 bytes each 10 minutes.

Thank you.

[beyonlo]

@beyonlo said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@bmarkus said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@beyonlo said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@bmarkus said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@beyonlo said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

2. But for start in this way, I still would like to know how many LoPy devices can one LoPy (as gateway) to support?
   Project 1: The idea is that each LoPy device send 100KB each 5-10 minutes.
   Project 2: The idea is that each LoPy device send ~20bytes each second.
   Project 3: The idea is that each LoPy device send 100KB each day.

Thank you.

No way.

Project 1: It is not for LoRaWAN even not for an 8-channel professional GW. LoRaWAN is not for 100KB data transmission, it is for sensor network sending low volume data in most cases in one direction w/o confirmation much less frequently..

Propject 2: Channel usage, transmit duty cycle is limited to 1.0/0.1% depending on channel.

I kindly advice to read basic documents and FAQ on LoRaWAN and redesign your projects. You need something else than LoRaWAN. It is not about LoPy.

Hello.

Sorry for my ignorance, but yes, I already read about the Technology (data rate specifically), from here https://www.lora-alliance.org/what-is-lora/technology and say : "LoRaWAN data rates range from 0.3 kbps to 50 kbps. "

Yes, I know that 50 kbps is a theory and/or with a perfect environment. But if I have just ~5kbps, is fine for Project1, Project2 and Project3, see?

Thank you.

GW's support SF7-SF12 which means cca. 5kbps max. But do not design for SF7. Really, what you want is not a LoRaWAN use case. I can't tell you more.

All right. So, please, going to the point: "how many LoPy devices can one LoPy (as gateway) to support?"

A real and valid scenario (project): send 100 bytes each 10 minutes.

Thank you.

From: https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/limitations-data-rate-packet-size-30-seconds-uplink-and-10-messages-downlink-per-day-fair-access-policy/1300

"
Fair Access Policy: Practice

• Golden rule: 30 seconds air-time per device per day
• For 10 bytes of payload, this translates in (approx.):
  20 messages per day at SF12
  500 messages per day at SF7
  more for SF7BW250 and FSK (local-area)
• If your application requires more bandwidth, think of another solution
• This allows for >1000 nodes per gateway
• Downlink bandwidth is even more restricted
  you can’t send all messages as ‘confirmed uplink
  "

[Batilan]

@beyonlo said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

From: https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/limitations-data-rate-packet-size-30-seconds-uplink-and-10-messages-downlink-per-day-fair-access-policy/1300

Note that although LoPy and TTN are "a match made in heaven" they are not actually maried :-)

You should however always take into account local duty cycle regulations, in EU typically max 1% (14 minutes per day), see also this document (in Dutch).

In general the more airtime you will be using per node the less nodes you can support. But note that a gateway can receive multiple LoRa encoded packets simultaneously because it can decode multiple channels at the same time, but also multiple spreading factors within a single channel.

See also:

• Spreadsheet for Lora Airtime calculation
• Lorawan limitations
• Scalability of LoRaWAN

[livius]

I am really curious who and how can check this 1% ;-)
Ok if i talking with some provider yes, but if my devices talking each other i suppose that this regulation is virtual i am right?

[bmarkus]

@livius said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

I am really curious who and how can check this 1% ;-)
Ok if i talking with some provider yes, but if my devices talking each other i suppose that this regulation is virtual i am right?

You are using a license free frequency which is shared between users. 1.0% limitation is imposed to keep it usable for others. Be fair using it.

In a LoRaWAN network devices do not talk to each other but devices talk to base stations (gw) and rarely base stations to devices, but limitation is valid for base stations too.

Device modules, like RN2483 do check it and reject transmission exceeding the limit. Well, you can change the limit in the configuration.

Limitation is not for the LoRaWAN usage but for the free ISM band and is not virtual. Or as virtual as the red light on the road. Check the frequency regulations in your country.

[livius]

@bmarkus
You know how it is - if something is only prohibited and no one checks. I am confident that users will use it in excess. This is the same as for parking. If one would not controlled despite the paid parking zones one would not pay for it ;-)

One more sample:
In my country one operator prohibit use of LTE(normal LTE) to talking without person. You know person is only autorized no device to device talking. This is for me really virtual regulation ;-)

[bmarkus]

@livius said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@bmarkus
You know how it is - if something is only prohibited and no one checks. I am confident that users will use it in excess. This is the same as for parking. If one would not controlled despite the paid parking zones one would not pay for it ;-)

Why don't you buy a jammer and connect to a roof antenna?

[livius]

@bmarkus

you meant something like this? :)

[livius]

And sorry for spamming
but is this 1% for one device or for one "virtual user"?
You know i have 100 devices and use summary 100% of bandwidth

[bmarkus]

@livius said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

And sorry for spamming
but is this 1% for one device or for one "virtual user"?
You know i have 100 devices and use summary 100% of bandwidth

1% is for one device and one channel. So yes, 100 devices on a single channel use 100% of the channel. If you have 8 channels, situation is better, you need 800 devices to fully load it.

However there are channels with only 0.1% allowed duty rate. Check your regulations. In which country you are?

[livius]

Thank you for the info.

country - Poland - we have really early setup and regulations are only from providers
maybe i am wrong then someone can correct me

[bmarkus]

@livius said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

Thank you for the info.

country - Poland - we have really early setup and regulations are only from providers
maybe i am wrong then someone can correct me

Poland is member of EU and member countries accept the ERO regulations. Would be surprised to learn it is not regulated in Poland.

[livius]

@bmarkus
if LoRa is regulated in EU than yes it is regulated in Poland.
But i am end user...

[borjam]

The radio spectrum is regulated. European directives are transposed to the national laws of the member states.

Even "free" ISM frequencies have some usage restrictions. You cannot exceed power levels in the Wi-Fi frequencies, for example.

So what happens if you exceed it? Well, it depends. Probably nothing. But in case it disrupts another user of the same spectrum and an investigation proves that you were misbehaving... well, the fines can be hefty. Check your national telecommunications law.

And, as many aspects of the regulations are subject to interpretation, good luck with a judge if you get in trouble!

That said, if you are developing software and you are concerned with "polluting" the band with lots of transmissions, buy an attenuator on eBay and connect module and gateway together. There are old HP/Agilent attenuators that you can adjust from 0 to 130 dB in 10 dB steps.

[JF002]

I'm a bit confused about LORA/LORAWAN. With the current state of the firmware, is it possible to create a "LORAWAN" gateway on one Lopy, and connect another Lopy in LORAWAN mode to it?

I know that it won't be fully compliant with LORAWAN or TTN because of the single channel limitation, but I would like to do some tests, and I have no LORAWAN gateway in range...

Thanks!

[bmarkus]

@JF002 said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

I'm a bit confused about LORA/LORAWAN. With the current state of the firmware, is it possible to create a "LORAWAN" gateway on one Lopy, and connect another Lopy in LORAWAN mode to it?

I know that it won't be fully compliant with LORAWAN or TTN because of the single channel limitation, but I would like to do some tests, and I have no LORAWAN gateway in range...

Thanks!

A LoRaWAN GW is just a dumb device, network functions are provided by the network server. A GW without network server is useless.

[borjam]

@JF002 said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

I'm a bit confused about LORA/LORAWAN. With the current state of the firmware, is it possible to create a "LORAWAN" gateway on one Lopy, and connect another Lopy in LORAWAN mode to it?

I know that it won't be fully compliant with LORAWAN or TTN because of the single channel limitation, but I would like to do some tests, and I have no LORAWAN gateway in range...

If it't not fully compliant, it's not a LoRaWAN gateway. Period. The limitation is not only the single channel reception (at least three channels are mandatory en Europe, see the regional parameters document from the LoRa Alliance). And a LoRaWAN gateway needs to receive several different spreading factors simultaneously.

But it you just want to create a diy network you can use a Pycom device as a "gateway". It will be limited to a single frequency and a single SF.

That's what the nano-gateway example shows.

[JF002]

@borjam, bmarkus Thanks for these informations.

Indeed, I want to create a DIY network, only for my devices, for experimentations and tests.
But is it possible to connect a true LORAWAN device to this nano-gateway? I suppose I'll need to configure them so that they use the same channel/frequency/sf/whatever than my nano-gateway.
Is is possible to create such a LORAWAN node with the Lopy?

[bmarkus]

@JF002 said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@borjam, bmarkus Thanks for these informations.

Indeed, I want to create a DIY network, only for my devices, for experimentations and tests.
But is it possible to connect a true LORAWAN device to this nano-gateway? I suppose I'll need to configure them so that they use the same channel/frequency/sf/whatever than my nano-gateway.
Is is possible to create such a LORAWAN node with the Lopy?

Read previous posts. It is not clear what do you want to reach. What are the "true LoraWAN devices": Probably you can hack. But than they are not true LoraWAN devices anymore.

What is about the network server?

Really, please forget LoPy or any other SX127x based devices as a LoRaWAN gateway.

You can build fine networks with them, there are academic opensource projects using LoRa devices with a different networking protocol. Yes, it is possible, but need a different protocol stack.

But please, do not call it LoRaWAN which is a standardized network architecture and protocol.

[borjam]

@JF002 said in LoPy as LoRaWAN Basestation?:

@borjam, bmarkus Thanks for these informations.

Indeed, I want to create a DIY network, only for my devices, for experimentations and tests.
But is it possible to connect a true LORAWAN device to this nano-gateway? I suppose I'll need to configure them so that they use the same channel/frequency/sf/whatever than my nano-gateway.
Is is possible to create such a LORAWAN node with the Lopy?

There are no true or half true LoRaWAN (or even π % true) devices. There are LoRaWAN devices and non LoRaWAN devices.

It is not possible to build a LoRaWAN gateway with a LoPy, period. It can't listen on multiple channels nor multiple SFs simultaneously. So, if you need a gateway for LoRaWAN devices it will certainly not work.

If you want to build a network with raw LoRa devices (for example, LoRa cards available for the Raspberry Pi or Arduino and Lopy) it should work. It may take some experimentation due to documentation confusion. Actually I am going to do some tests with LoPy and a card for Raspberry and Arduino from "Dragino".

As far as I know, LoRaWAN nodes are required to choose a frequency at random out of a minimum of three channels. Even if you set up three LoPys, one on each frequency, you would still need to listen to several different SFs. The kludge is not worth the effort.